Space Engineers Feedback

402
Votes
Water/Fluids in general
Hello KSH and fellow engineers, I have allready enjoyed over 1000 hours of SE but there's one imporatant thing missing in the game in my opinion. Once the core foundation of space engineers is finished (maybe after or late in the beta stage?) I would love to see fluid water added to the game. I'm sure you can make it possible after all you managed to make even planets possible in the game :). Having one fluid added to the vanilla game would also enable modders to use it as a template to make other fluids such as oil and gas giants since gases behave very similar to fluids just with much lower density. It doesn't have to be perfectly physicaly correct you can probably do some simplifications for example assuming a water body is infinite when it's volume exeeds a certain limit so you don't have to recalculate the water level of a whole ocean just because a player drained a relatively small amount. Reading comments under the weekly update videos I know I'm not the only one wanting to see that feature in the later development of SE.


megapro shared this idea 17/08/17 19:29
Different 17/08/17 22:30
The idea of liquid that you envision I would assume it is very hard to code, very taxing to the planet system as well and the time that it takes to be added will be wasted when compared to what they can do with it. with that said, I was thinking of having a still water that wouldn't make fancy stuff like true 3d waves or pushing things around, maybe some visual particles when things touch it (rings around objects). When you enter it it replaces natural gravity with a lesser gravity to simulate water physics, player doesn't breath when in the water boundary unless the area is air tight (which could be used to define it as water tight as well) then that room will make just the player function with 1g gravity but there are the issues, I am not sure if it is possible to have one room or multiple rooms use one type of gravity and other rooms or an area use an other set of gravity, even more when you consider that those rooms will travel at 100m/s, could be capped at 50m/s or something. then you have to consider that there needs to be a difficulty of moving around in water due to viscosity, limit the output of engines, the way liquids work it would be more like a pair of engines acting like constant dampeners... what about crashing into the water, maybe it functions as a barrier when travelling above 20m/s or something. Then what about being half in and half out of the water? Thing is too complicated maybe at the end of the game or as a bonus after the game's release (out of beta)
megapro 18/08/17 20:21
@Different: I think you misunderstood me. I don't want or need this feature immediatly but I think it's still an important feature for the devs to keep in mind for later implementation. I fully agree right now there are more pressing issues that need to be worked on and those things have been posted here allready and will naturally get a higher ranking anyways.
mirislw 18/08/17 20:27
very nice
JuStX2 20/08/17 09:04
The worst thing you can do for the already incredible multiplayer lag: Add Water Physics.
megapro 21/08/17 18:47
@JuStX2 As I allready said twice, they can implement water in the end of the beta stage or after it when bigger issues like multiplayer lag are allready sorted out.
Matterom 22/08/17 04:52
Water is one of the few topics Keen takes a hard line NO to. It's simply not possible with current hardware on the scale people want. SE as a game is barely possible with current gen hardware.
JustRyan 22/08/17 17:01
the technology just isn't there yet...
megapro 23/08/17 19:09
It doesn't have to be as complex as real water physics with all the rheological factors like viscosity, or compressibility and wave simulation, changing of phases etc. If I want that I run Solidworks flow simulation^^ A very basic ingame representation of fluids shouldn't be impossible though even if it's minecraft like water.
Matterom 24/08/17 06:05
@megapro You don't understand, it's not the level of detail that's the problem, It's the scale and functionality.
PhoenixTheSage 26/08/17 02:51
@Matterom I completely disagree, and no it's never been a hardline no as you say. It has been a heavy "probably not." But so were planets. The problem is, well, planets. It's -extremely- immersion breaking only having ice on planets. There are many examples of voxel games implementing water in various implementations. From Minecraft to 7 Days to Die. 7DTD btw has same amount of sides in their voxels as SE. The only thing holding back water as a concept is people trying to over-complicate the idea. It doesn't need to be super dynamic or realistic. It just needs to be a special voxel type that is swimmable, shows a second voxel layer under its transparency, and has some basic buoyancy calculations for a mass colliding with it. Having ice lakes is worse than having a limited/basic water implementation in my opinion. It's just so tacky.
Matterom 26/08/17 08:02
7Days also uses a weird kind of semi static voxel water and is pseudo procedural, with a world size many folds smaller than a SE planet.
The7thDragon 27/08/17 22:54
I completely agree with OP that water would be great, far in the future obviously, but nevertheless great. I have even been considering how to do it as a poor man's script. 1) Start with a voxel offset calculation, similar to what happens with meteor impacts but better done. 2) Make the voxels avoid grids (not suits) at close proximity, but only so much at once, this could give a side effect of resistance. If a ship crashes into it, the voxels would move but if the ship moves faster than the voxels it will get damaged the way it does now. Basically it should imitate water tension against larger and heavier objects, just poorly. 3) If this is successful, we could even make a new water system. Inlets and outlets would destroy (collect) and create water voxels respectively, converting them to a resource. Pipes would carry the water (could have an inventory similar to how sorters do, on the other hand considering current inventory woes we could just make them as a conveyor-type entity) and pressure calculations should be fairly easy to do for this (check distance to next highest rise to account for gravity, how much pressure is needed). And lastly pumps that are like sorters but their purpose is to add pressure to the pipework, allowing uphill water movement. It's a rubbish idea, and I don't have the programming experience to make it possible, but I can still dream.
The7thDragon 27/08/17 23:11
As a side note: if it is possible to allow the suit to travel through the water voxels, it could apply a slight drag. so if the pipe inlets "suck" in water, you could get dragged in if you're too close, or a crashing ship could cause a splash, pushing you away from it as the voxels move. Also the voxel offset is supposed to be like a pre-impact, avoiding the grid (by a very small distance) and theoretically would imitate a ripple or wave. Since more displacement from a larger grid would cause the voxels to pile up around, and those voxels will attempt to smooth out by checking the surfaces (voxels and grids) within a very short distance then moving to a lower point in that area. Unfortunately so far I can only think that this would apply as a per-voxel calculation, which would drastically lower performance efficiency.
susu 01/09/17 16:10
Please don't implement this! It is not as simple as a water in 7days. Here we have gravity, non-gravity, etc. SE even start to struggle when there are hundred floating objects. Imagine water as a million floating object. Anything simpler would be more unrealistic than an icelake in the middle of a desert.
TheTeaKettle 02/09/17 00:40
@susu. It does not have to be realistic. IMO i does not even have to move. as long as i can go into it and some things float on it. Then it will more realistic than planets are atm.
megapro 02/09/17 14:48
I just wanted to show that this is a highly anticipated feature in the community. None of us has the insight to know wether it can or can't be done. We as players shouldn't and can't make any assumptions here about the game's/engine's future capabilities in a year or two or do you have any actual idea of how the vrage engine works? I personally don't and my bet is you don't have any insight whatsoever either.
megapro 02/09/17 15:02
TLDR: With zero insider knowledge about the vrage engine any asumptions about it's limitations and capabilities are pointless period.
ronin 05/09/17 22:43
i would like just small puddles of fluid or having like a water bottle
XeroCreator 06/09/17 11:38
It would be nice to just add bottles of water for hydration to start... not that we need another bar but health could be split up into a red bar and a blue bar and blue is hydration, red is 'health'. I"m leaning a bit more towards food/drink items though. still a good idea. You have no idea how much 'water' is discussed... actually to give you an idea, type water in se in the keen discord, and you will get an idea real quick.
ChrisHiss 14/09/17 21:17
I think it should be considered, but not being a priority. We need a stable game first, and as it should be a huge change and a lot of effort, KSWH has to have more revenue to start such a project!
aikiwolfie 14/09/17 21:29
Perhaps it would be possible to add liquid to the game as a sort of squishy voxel layer. Or just add a very simple water table.
RBGSection 14/09/17 22:31
the idea of going way to fast into a plant and crashing into water seams like it would be so much fun in this game especially if they addend atmospheric re-entry effects
Pharap 14/09/17 23:07
I agree that even pseudo-realistic water is taxing Even if water were just at a fixed level above the planet that alters your view when you walk under it, I think that would be better than the 'solid water' we have currently. I'd rather have really fake water that's sort of recognisable as water than solid earth painted blue.
andreykl 14/09/17 23:12
Any kind of water would be better then Ice instead of water.
doncdxx 15/09/17 18:10
Fluid water is too difficult to implement. A simple ocean layer for the planet would do fine.
Csongor 15/09/17 19:27
Maybe a spherical water level could do the job. With water areas on that level what can extend horizintally if the voxel allows it. But it could cose massive carshes by filling up a large area.
Xanthynn 17/09/17 00:53
I would way rather see stable pistons and rotors in multiplayer, and randomly generated quests, or a way to take ships from one server to another in vanilla before I see liquid. Coding difficulty vs gameplay payoff just doesn't seem worth it.
daspablo 17/09/17 00:56
Ya'll seem to have a super computers... would negative vote if at all possible.
Ilias 17/09/17 11:33
for it, with priority described upper
KManALPHA 17/09/17 16:19
there is more than one way to implement this, and finding the most fitting way would be a great addition.
NikolasMarch 19/09/17 14:19
Water in SE would be great, but i think the most we could expect will be non-interactive fake 'cloud layer' water, but a whole lot of other things need to change, and be added for even that to make any sense
Esser2002 20/09/17 09:09
I dont think we need advanced water fysics, but something to make it like vaccum (you cant breathe) with drag. I think that would do the trick, and if they made some things float on this, it would allow boats, submarines, hybrid crafts and also making crashing in water nice. Ion thrusters and hydrogen trustens, maybe even atmosphereic thrusteres should not work underwater, making it feel different from waccum.
duncandisorder 01/10/17 00:50
Please help support my "Furniture and Greenhouse" idea. It really is a good idea, if I say so myself. Personally, I think the game has overlooked a vital part of ship building. We have no furniture, like beds and desks or no bathroom items, like sinks, toilets and showers. Anyway, there's more to my idea, I would appreciate any votes. Thank you. https://feedback.keenswh.com/idea/furniture-and-greenhouse59c67aa110fc8
steelphantom67 04/10/17 06:24
i literally made this same suggestion
Raytruth 05/10/17 11:24
I like i can mine my water, to add water would mean just to add another feature (new containers, maybe new conveyors) to have the same thing, oxygen.
QuixoticMix 20/10/17 22:32
Please help support my "Half block amor extension" idea. Thanks to Keen we now have half armor blocks!!! Why stop there? Add even more! I would appreciate any votes. Thank you. https://feedback.keenswh.com/idea/please-clang-half-block-amor-extension59bac9f5100f7
aikiwolfie 23/10/17 01:12
Why are people claiming water is too difficult when virtually every current similar game has water of some description other than solid ice? Even back in the olden days of DOS4GW games we could drown in acid in the original Doom and take a swim in sewage in the original Quake. There are methods of implementing fluids that do not require realistic fluid dynamics PC killing computation. Games have had fluids for decades now. This can be done without breaking the game.
malwaredev 23/10/17 07:39
To quote a Discord autoresponse: "There are no plans to implement (liquid) water of any kind in Space Engineers." This, along with compound blocks, are features they have _clearly_ and _repeatedly_ stated that they _will not do_. No amounts of votes are likely to change that because they already know the community very much wants these things.
malwaredev 23/10/17 07:43
Meaning, you guys are better off moving your votes to something that actually has a chance ;)
andreykl 23/10/17 08:08
>Why are people claiming water is too difficult when virtually every current similar game has water of some description other than solid ice? Water itself is not difficult if you are making a simple 'surface with texture' or something along those lines. The 'hard part' with voxel games is that water usually needs physics and personally I have yet to see a voxel game that made water both physically accurate and performance friendly. SE has it tougher then most because it has grids that are not connected to voxels and has oxygen and oxygen-tight rooms. You wouldn't want to drawn inside oxygen tight room, right? And since this is 'Engineers' we are speaking about then this also means that objects that are 'lighter' then water will have to float which should be a nightmare to implement or an fps killer (game will have to count accurate volume, make water apply force to keep object afloat e t c.)
megapro 29/10/17 17:53
@malwaredev for pretty much half of the stuff that's in the game right now there was initially "no plan to implement them" but the strong demand of the comunity eventually convinced them to implement those things nonetheless. Even though it might be unlikely I think it's important to voice what we want in the game here be it in 2 years or so. And for "vote for something that actually has a chance" that's fortunately not for you to decide but the actual devs of SE and we have not heard a final decision over this matter from them yet.
DaBigBrzezinski 02/12/17 08:49
The most feasible way I can imagine this working is the water table idea. Just have a layer of the atmosphere function as a planet's water table. Water would function as a region with no oxygen, reduced visibility, and altered thruster performance. Some block changes would probably also be to take in water to function as ice, just like the way a depressurizing air vent can take in atmospheric oxygen. If some atmospheric physics simulation like lift and drag were added, water might even provide buoyancy as a force countering gravity (maybe in hydrogen balloons as well). Just imagine the sorts of environments this could open up. Planets covered mostly in oceans, underground bases only accessible through underwater caves, mining bases on the floor of a methane ocean, gas giants with thick atmospheres both valuable and corrosive. And all of it without asking VRAGE to track the flow of water.
jackik 02/12/17 15:03
I agree that this would be awesome to have. The fact that actual 3d stuff would be a tremendous stress on pcs that can't even properly handle the game now ... well for proper water I'd wait a decade for the hardware to catch up ^^. However like it has been stated before, something to just give the illusion would be a great addition to the game and would push immersion a bunch. While ice in space is completely obvious (considering where we are supposed to be), ice in deserts? A simple texture animation + a little wavey animation using sprites when looked at from a sideways angle would be awesome.
malwaredev 06/12/17 14:15
@megapro Yes, we have. Many, many times.
megapro 07/12/17 02:44
You have any official source for that claim? Like Marek's blogposts or a YT/Twitch video. I think they said once that it's unlikely but that was well over a year ago and a lot of things have changed in the game. Full voxel planet's were unthinkable not so long ago and until last major update many didn't think we would get (for the most part) clang free physics anytime soon. It's still beta and they don't say "everything is subject to change" without a reason. You might wanna be pessimistic regarding new suggestions somewhere else than on a suggestion platform.
aikiwolfie 07/12/17 23:13
@andreykl it's already been said the water doesn't have to be realistic. Games like Empyrion and Planet Nomads are managing to do water. They seem to be using a simple water table system. Granted SE goes much heavier on the physics. But we don't need full fluid dynamics. Just something that is not ice.
OasisMade 22/01/18 10:30
Space engineer water can be done by a leveling system between blocks. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/uf_r30GgJm4/maxresdefault.jpg https://megagames.com/sites/default/files/game-images/PORTALKNIGHTS.jpg
OasisMade 22/01/18 10:34
"Portal Knights", a minecraft like, include a well done water managments. The idea is to apply a dynamic water texture on water blocks. The waterblock size decrease and split in other water blocks next to it slowly, if the water block is not restrained. Water blocks are created by source blocks, who create water around them until all water blocks around it are not full. It should be possible to create a water source generator in space by converting ice, in order to create water in pressurized rooms. If the room is getting depressurized, the water texture on blocks will boil and the water blocks level will decrease fast. The idea is to have liquid water only on earth first to simplify, but its hard to do a leveling water system on a round planet. But maybe we need to get closer to real life to make it easier. On earth there is a Artesian level, it can be simplify. All blocks on earth below an altitude (10meter underground) will generate water if they are not surrounded, and the generated water can be restrained to this distance from the center of earth. After that you can create lake, and water source can be add on some mountain. The water should slowly evaporate from each block and disapear. It will limit the number of generated water blocks. And a last things, if the water is falling and splitting on the ground, it should drill ground blocks slowly if the water block level is between 5-30%, it wont drill all blocks so, and it will create real river. It would be possible to create a lance spray gun, link to a water generator, which create a falling water jet, which will increase water level on the block that is touch by the jet. A cool feature may be to use convoyers system to transport water. By adding a pump block, working like air vent blocks, that can pump or working like a source by switching the mod. It should be possible to create water tanks like oxygen tanks. This water may be used to create ice, hydrogen, and oxygen as well, and to refill the man suit. Water may be consumes to enhance reactor perfomance, thruster power, or assembly performance by adding a block on it, working like an effectiveness upgrade module, or by activating an option in the control panel, for thursters or reactor for example. Then water may be used to for farming systems and more! Hoping my english is not to bad, Good luck
andreykl 22/01/18 10:55
@OasisMade The only problem with your suggestion is that SE Planets have no blocks.
megapro 22/01/18 18:40
@OasisMade some cool ideas. I guess getting the formation of rivers to work is a little too ambitions for now but still would be cool if they can make it. @andreykl the "blocks" in SE are smaller (than in minecraft for example) and called voxels so I don't think that's the big issue here.
andreykl 22/01/18 22:27
@megapro unfortunaly voxels aren't exactly blocks, in case of SE they are not only smaller, they have a lot of connections, there are more of them and they are not nessesary at same vertical level. You definitely can store 'volume of liquid' in voxel, but the problem is that spreading this liquid will require immense computing power. A lake is manageable, something bigger - not so much. P.S. There were attempts to do 'level' based water in minecraft, but it always ends insanely CPU heavy. Stonehearth has good water, but their map is very limited, water scarce and they use 'blocks', voxel based Stationeers have water but it lags a lot in large quantities.
megapro 15/03/18 11:46
That's some interesting insight. So if lakes would technically be possible and oceans aren't due to current hardware limitations why not set a maximum volume of fluid in the planet generator? Vanilla planets wouldn't have anything to big to handle for a modern PC but of course there will be people breaking the limit with custom planets from the workshop. That's something which happens with pretty much all aspects of the game. Best example being speedmods: not allowing them entirely would be quite a limitation for many players but some will also break the game flying at 10000m/s and more.
andreykl 15/03/18 12:20
It is likely possible, but I really doubt Keen or SE players will want to be limited by small water bodies. There are more ways to implement water then one. There even was a blogpost from Keen that mentioned some ways that they have considered... I think the reason why Keens don't want water yet is not because they lack a decent way to implement it, but because 1. they have trouble selecting the best one with least limitations => means more work and testing 2. gain/effort factor is too low as is, they are simply are not convinced they need it.
andreykl 15/03/18 12:35
P.S. I might be mistaken about there being a blog post with method Keen concidered for SE... at least all I can find now is ME-water related.
megapro 15/03/18 18:47
Thx I'll have a look for that. After all both games are based on the same engine and we've allready seen instances of keen transfering from one game to the other. e.g. the much improved voxel hands in the last major SE update. With their new update approach of not hassling with weekly micro patches maybe they will get more stuff done in the time they have for the game.